Mastering the Art of Client Communication in Design

Casey: 00:00:32

Hi, I'm Casey.

Rainey: 00:00:33

And I'm Rainey. Welcome to the Reframing Design podcast. If you're a new designer, a seasoned designer, a homeowner, or a home enthusiast, you are in the right place.

Casey: 00:00:44

We are going to talk about all things design. Our stories, our opinions, our experiences, and we're probably going to chase a few rabbits down a few rabbit holes.

But one thing we can guarantee, we will not talk about politics. Well, aloha. How are you today on this?

Rainey: 00:01:01

It makes me laugh when you.

Casey: 00:01:04

Well, what. We got to start with something.

Rainey: 00:01:06

So this has been a discussion for us because it's like, okay, how are we going to start the podcast? And. Well, hello. I think it's taken. And howdy.

Casey: 00:01:16

Seems a little too.

Rainey: 00:01:19

And so. Hola. Was not it?

Casey: 00:01:21

So. Aloha.

Rainey: 00:01:23

Aloha.

Casey: 00:01:24

Today will be an aloha.

Rainey: 00:01:26

I'm so glad that you said aloha. And then you followed it up and you said for. From balmy Houston, Texas. And it's the truth. It's cold, kind of for us, but it's still balmy.

Like, what is that?

Casey: 00:01:37

I can't figure out what's happening in my arms right now. Like, am I sweating? Am I? Anyway, it's a situation. It's a situation. It's an aloha. Yeah. Hi.

Rainey: 00:01:46

Hi there.

Casey: 00:01:48

So good to be back in your studio.

Rainey: 00:01:49

So much has happened since the last time I saw you.

Casey: 00:01:53

So much.

Rainey: 00:01:53

We've celebrated Christmas, we've celebrated a new year. And then.

Casey: 00:02:00

And then so much has happened since that. Right. We kind of gotta touch on what's.

Rainey: 00:02:05

Going on in la. Just so disheartening and so sad and so heartbreaking. And actually, that leads right into my win.

Our daughter, our youngest daughter lives in the south part of la, and she was really nervous when the fires first broke out, as you can imagine, and they were spreading to who knew where. And so she was able to come home for a few days, and we got to spend some unexpected time with her.

And we were so proud of her because she was connecting people that needed to evacuate that she knew. And we were able to send home some supplies that we thought our community might be able to use. But that's my win. It's sort of sad.

And then a silver lining.

Casey: 00:02:46

Yeah. You got to spend time with her being back here.

Rainey: 00:02:49

Yeah.

Casey: 00:02:49

She didn't get to see.

Rainey: 00:02:50

Super nice.

Casey: 00:02:51

It is. But, my gosh, what a. It'll be that. Talk about reframing. I mean, LA is about to have the biggest transition in history.

Rainey: 00:03:01

I would think that we know About. Right.

Casey: 00:03:02

It's mind boggling to really wrap your head around of the enormity and the impacts. That's so true. And I'm one. I do not like watching the news whatsoever.

And I am kind of all in on this, all of the stories and you know, just thinking that social media really does keep us abreast to stuff that's going on and positive stuff as well. People, humanity, doing the radest stuff for each other. Yes. But it's been. Yeah, we're all glued to it right now because we're all part of it.

Rainey: 00:03:36

And I know you're from California, so this is especially touching for you.

Casey: 00:03:41

So it's changed. Like the shift, I think is what's interesting. But yeah, so we'll see. Well how we're still in it.

And obviously when this film or when this airs, we'll be past it ideally and hopefully on the men for them. But right now we're still. They're still in it.

Rainey: 00:03:55

Yep.

Casey: 00:03:56

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:03:57

And what about a win for you?

Casey: 00:03:59

My win is just after the holidays and kind of feeling the slowness felt really nice and I thought maybe it was my time to maybe slow down. And then the universe played a little trick and revved business back up.

So couple huge new projects in the last week that now I'm like, okay, so I won't be quiet for a while. It'll. So now I'm excited. Very fun projects, great clients and a couple that, you know, repeat clients, which is always like our goal.

Rainey: 00:04:27

The repeat clients. Right.

Casey: 00:04:28

Feels so nice.

Rainey: 00:04:29

God love the repeat clients.

Casey: 00:04:31

Oh, you do like me. Okay. Yeah, yeah, so those are mine. So I know.

Rainey: 00:04:36

Well, keeping in mind, of course the people in LA during all of this, but this is a podcast about design and today we're gonna take on the topic of Ren reframing the experience for the client and what that looks like. And so one of the things that you and I have talked about is that talking about money is never comfortable.

It doesn't matter who you're talking to about it. It seems like a very uncomfortable topic. And in order to work with clients, we absolutely have to talk about money. How early do you talk about money?

Casey: 00:05:15

I start pretty much in the first meeting. So we kind of, if it's an in person, we talk. If it's a phone conversation a little bit, but in person for sure.

Going through and seeing what kind of their thoughts are on, you know, from Terry Taylor of the coaches, I think I mentioned previously, but she talks about budget on the fly. So kind of getting your Client comfortable with talking about, like, well, okay, so what do you think of couch?

And then when you get to that number at the end, then they really had a buy in on it because they were kind of calling out in the process. Yeah, they were in the process of it.

Because I do find, and it's just natural, we've all learned, like, you don't talk about money, politics or religion.

Rainey: 00:05:52

Right.

Casey: 00:05:53

So we'll talk about money. The other two, we'll leave it behind. But it's so important though, because we're not asking somebody how much money they have.

Rainey: 00:06:02

Right.

Casey: 00:06:02

It's what you're comfortable spending.

Rainey: 00:06:04

Exactly.

Casey: 00:06:04

And letting go of on this project. So they're very different.

And so it's important though, and I hope at this point now, getting the clients to the where now we just talk, it's just comfortable.

Rainey: 00:06:16

Right. You know, you can make it comfortable.

Casey: 00:06:19

Right.

Rainey: 00:06:19

With the way you approach it, you.

Casey: 00:06:20

Can make it really just determining from their comfort zone what they're willing to spend on. And where their points are of contention are where they're like, I don't really value a $5,000 rug, but I'll go to town on, you know, a piece of art.

Rainey: 00:06:37

Yes.

Casey: 00:06:37

Yeah. So just knowing where those rub points are. Exactly when do you start?

Rainey: 00:06:42

Right from the very beginning.

And I always frame it by saying, I don't want to design something that's lower than your expectation in the same way that I don't want to design above your expectation. My favorite is when somebody says, we don't have a budget. That's my favorite.

Casey: 00:07:01

I love it.

Rainey: 00:07:02

So the second somebody says that, my response is, right. My response is, so you would be comfortable at a million dollars? And then just I'm very quiet while I watch the wheels, you know, fall off.

And depending on the project, they might say, yes, but most often it's, well, that's not what I was thinking.

And I'm like, okay, so that number that is in your brain kind of flashing in neon lights, that's what I want to talk about, you know, and then a lot of times that's when you first see the sort of sticking point between the partners, right? Yes. And sometimes. And this will go on throughout the process. Right.

I'll look at one or the other and I'll go, you probably need to go back to work right now to make some more money today. Because I think we're going to be needing that, you know, and it breaks the ice and it makes it fun. It does.

Casey: 00:07:58

And then when there's a savings like we just had $130, like, savings the other day, which is, you know, when you have a million dollar budget on whatever. Yeah, but it's so exciting, right? Like, oh, my God, where are we gonna spend it? So it's kind of goes like, don't spend it all in one place.

Could that be my little.

Rainey: 00:08:17

You're getting a couple of more picture frames. Yeah, yeah.

Casey: 00:08:21

But it's just. But the. But to make it not so stressful for them, because it is.

And I think a lot of couples, though, they even haven't discussed, because even in their own home, that's not a conversation that's comfortable.

Rainey: 00:08:40

Exactly.

Casey: 00:08:40

How much are we spending and how much do we have extra? Some of that's not all, like real fluid happening at home.

Rainey: 00:08:46

Exactly.

Casey: 00:08:46

So then you really get to it when you're with them. And it's an interesting dynamic, for sure.

Rainey: 00:08:53

Yeah.

It exposes a lot of sort of what you're going to take on with that client during the process, I think also for me, and I don't know if you've experienced, but when clients first come in, I mean, we are both in the luxury space, right? And these clients are titans in their industry.

Oftentimes they're used to being the smartest person in the room, the most educated, the most capable, and they come in here to the studio and there's like this, I don't know, deer in the headlights look, and they're like, what is this gonna cost me? What is this person? What is the value that you're gonna bring to me? What does all of this mean?

And a lot of times as we go through the process with them, you sort of feel the exhale in the room where they relax. You can see the body language change. They might lean in, or you just kind of see a smile instead of an oh, no look.

Casey: 00:09:47

But don't you think that it's so much of that fear is either whether they've watched stuff on TV or they've heard from a friend, there's so many heard fights from a friend that you're like, I need to talk to that friend and find out that designer's number. Because I do want to talk to her or him. Like, what are they doing to the industry?

Because most of the designers I know don't just go willy nilly, bring stuff, show it, and then invoice them later. But apparently that's happening a lot. And that's what the clients we're getting are afraid of, which is completely understandable.

I wouldn't be so nervous to hire somebody and have no idea what the deliverables, what their budget. And so that it's that budget versus investment conversation, which is so tricky. The wording is.

Rainey: 00:10:33

You talk about this often because I.

Casey: 00:10:35

Love the wording and when you talk investment, because there is an roi, like furniture, for instance, it can move with you. Right. So building a house, of course there's that in the investment in that. And then.

But what you're putting in it, what we're hopefully putting in it is stuff that's gonna stand the test of time. And it's the things that, you know, they can recover later or restain because they love the style, but maybe the fabric, all of those things.

So they're pieces that are with them for a long, long time.

Rainey: 00:11:06

Right.

Casey: 00:11:06

So they are investments.

Rainey: 00:11:07

Right. And oftentimes there are those specialty pieces that, you know, are probably gonna be sold with the home or they're not gonna work in the next house.

And they have to figure out their tolerance level for those specialty pieces. But one of the things that comes to mind for me when I think about investment is in the remodel space.

And that is if I can look at a remodel and I can see where we can turn a flex room into a possible future bedroom for resale by adding the closet at the time of the remodel, making sure there's egress or a window that opens to a full three by three for a fire escape.

Casey: 00:11:45

Right.

Rainey: 00:11:46

If we can do that during the remodel process, we can actually add value to the home that they can truly recapture. Right?

Casey: 00:11:53

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:11:53

And so I think that's important. And I'm sure that you see that often or maybe even in the new home build where we can capture space.

Casey: 00:12:00

That's a great point though, in the remodel field, because that is, we've talked about construction and how much we both love in that space planning.

And so those moments where it's like it wasn't thought of before and it just feels so good to find that little, those extra 24 inches, you know, it doesn't have to be a walk in closet, for goodness sakes, but just somewhere that, yeah, Realtor comes in and can make that an extra bedroom. It's brilliant. Right.

Rainey: 00:12:23

And sometimes I tell my clients I can't weigh in on whether or not this is going to add value. You should call your agent and ask, you know, his or her thoughts on this for like long term value on the home.

But for furnishings, they may or may not work in the next house. If you're buying, you know, true estate pieces or antiques or something.

Of course, those can, nine times out of 10, be worked in, but the rest of it is what is the client willing to spend and what do.

Casey: 00:12:53

You love and what do you love? And so where can we kind of figure that out?

And in that, you know, so in the space of the new construction, which we both do, and the remodel, which we both get to do.

Rainey: 00:13:05

Yep.

Casey: 00:13:05

So I've got a client right now, just bought a beautiful home. Price tag was quite large and. But walking through the home, there's very little design element to it where they went hard. They went real hard.

And it's kind of so strong that you're like, okay, we got d. That. That's gotta go. But there's very few moments, and I love moments in a house where you're like, oh, that was, you know, a surprise.

People are doing them in patterns and spaces, but when you just want a moment at most corners, you turn in some of these beautiful homes. And it. So the. My client is a little bit bummed because now he has to put those moments in because they. They weren't done.

Rainey: 00:13:48

And after the big price tag.

Casey: 00:13:50

After the big price tag.

Rainey: 00:13:51

Yeah.

Casey: 00:13:51

And the conversation was this. They ran out of money. I mean, there's zero doubt that this all happened because it was like.

I'm sure it was drawn into the plans in a house like this, but they ran out of money because construction cost comes in and just other things happen. Right?

Rainey: 00:14:05

Yeah.

Casey: 00:14:06

And so that conversation.

Rainey: 00:14:07

So now your client has inherited that.

Casey: 00:14:08

And he's inherited it. And so. And we have that with our clients all the time because often the budget that they think they're doing is different.

And so that conversation also. Right.

With how we handle that, because we work with the builders and they're fabulous and we love them in our relationships, but at the same time, we recognize our clients understood a different experience than the builder sold.

Rainey: 00:14:32

Exactly.

Casey: 00:14:32

And so then we get to be the one who tells them there's no Santa Claus, like on the regular.

Rainey: 00:14:36

Right.

Casey: 00:14:37

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:14:37

This actually is going to cost money.

Casey: 00:14:39

Yeah, it's going to be a lot more. Oh, now you can't get your furniture because that budget just got down.

Rainey: 00:14:46

Or a lot of times what I see is the secondary spaces, the secondary bedrooms and that sort of thing. Those budgets go down and we try not to take away from the spaces that the. That the homeowner spends their. The most of their time in.

The kitchen, living room, study, and primary suite. We try not to take from those Those are always a last resort. Is that the same for you?

Casey: 00:15:07

Yeah, those are the ones you really. And the primary suite people will take from there. And that's the one I'm always trying to.

Rainey: 00:15:14

Me too. I'm like, is this right?

Casey: 00:15:16

You gots to have your spot to close that door.

Rainey: 00:15:20

And talking about investment, when you go to buy a house, the two things that are most impactful are the kitchen and the primary suite.

Casey: 00:15:27

That's so true.

Rainey: 00:15:27

And then I seem to think that the mudrooms are equally as important. It used to be utility rooms, but now I'm seeing that drop zone where you just drop all the stuff and things and it usually has a door to close.

If it doesn't have a mudroom, people aren't buying the homes. I don't know if that's countrywide or if we're just seeing that here in our area. But it's a thing.

Casey: 00:15:50

It is a thing. And I do, I wonder if it's. We are in a place that is so, you know, we have more space. So the houses we're building are a bit bigger. So maybe we.

Because a lot of places like being in California and all of that, there's such a limited amount of space. You might not even have a full on designated laundry room. It might just, you know, so isn't.

Rainey: 00:16:12

That funny that you know that from your experience And I've always had the, the southern Texas lots of land houses and been used to that. Uh huh.

Casey: 00:16:21

I mean you visited me when I had that, the place in Santa Barbara and I mean you walked in that back door and I mean it was. You're in the kitchen, you're in the kitchen.

Rainey: 00:16:30

And maybe that didn't strike me so much because we were there on sort of a vacation type feel.

Casey: 00:16:37

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:16:37

Instead of usability for how am I gonna raise three kids in this home?

Casey: 00:16:41

Yes.

Rainey: 00:16:41

Right.

Casey: 00:16:41

Because well, I was a lot. How would I, how would that work?

You know, where do all their backpacks, you know, all the things we're so spoiled with here but being there and when I was there, I mean, my gosh, we have tiny places so I couldn't imagine having a spot for my backpack. How luxurious.

Rainey: 00:16:56

I can't even imagine. I think the other thing that is so big for us is being available and how we set expectations of how we're going to communicate with our clients.

Because again, when you're the boss, you're the owner, you're the titan, you talk to people whenever you want to talk to people. But in our relationship with our clients how do you handle that?

Casey: 00:17:21

That's so interesting. So I thought you were. Meaning you were our titan. We wear all the hats, but no.

Rainey: 00:17:26

No, no, the client.

Casey: 00:17:28

So then they come in and they want us to talk directly to us and at any time that they need. Right. And. And there's a little bit of give and take on that. I certainly have gone more to the, you know, during business hours.

And I'll get back to you if. If I can't read, you know, phones off or something like that, because in meetings or anything we're doing, my phone's flipped over and it's off.

And I'm not responding to another client because they. The current client has my full attention. So try and make it as much like that as possible. Right.

But things do come up, and you try and be mindful of that. And as long as it's not.

Rainey: 00:18:00

Sometimes I'll have. Sometimes I'll have a client and I call them rogue shoppers.

And I will literally tell them, even in front of their partner, you have got to stop buying things until we get, like, a plan. But sometimes I have these clients and they cannot. They want to help themselves, but they cannot help themselves.

And so I'll say, can you please send me a text of the thing with dimensions before you buy something else?

Casey: 00:18:28

So you're just like. Even if it's on the weekend. Because talk about. I mean, rogue clients is a whole entire episode.

Rainey: 00:18:33

That's a whole new. That's a whole other episode.

Casey: 00:18:35

But no, that is. So how do you let them know? Because some people just. It's fun. It is fun. And they. And they.

Then you give them the inspiration at the kind of, you know, when you start that design concept. Right.

Rainey: 00:18:47

Yeah.

Casey: 00:18:48

Giving them. They know what the inspiration is, and then they're like pulling more. Right. Or whatever.

Rainey: 00:18:53

How do you get into it?

Casey: 00:18:55

Reel that in? Or do you have. Some people have hard. Like, once this is done, no more Pinterest boards. No more how we're done with all inspo design.

Rainey: 00:19:05

Right.

Casey: 00:19:05

Do you have a hard line?

Rainey: 00:19:07

So just because you add more things to your Pinterest board doesn't mean I'm going to look at it. Right. You can add away, you can blow it up, you can set it. I don't want to say set it on fire, but you can just get Pinterest going and that's okay.

You can do that. That doesn't mean I'm going to look at it after we've started the design process. And that's sort of where I draw that Hard line.

But what I've learned is maybe if I do have a rogue shopper, is to say, okay, for your study or your craft space, you can buy all the little things and stuff and that you would like to, and you can just go to town.

But for these main areas where you've asked me to be responsible and I'm putting my name on this with you, let's hold off on those things until we fully develop the design and then go back and revisit those things. But it's hard because you can't really tell people not to buy things.

But sending me text messages with images and stuff, that has been helpful because sometimes I'm just like, no. Or I don't love that as much as I want to. That's one of my favorite lines. I love that as much as I want to.

And that just kind of, you know, I'll get some sort of smart response. But I communicate. I text and email my clients. I allow them to text and email me. And I just say, I don't always have my phone on.

On the weekends or if I'm traveling. And so you can send it to me to kind of have your brain dump. Right. But that does not mean that I'm going to respond. Don't.

Don't hold your phone waiting for the response if it's after hours, because chances are it won't be an immediate response.

Casey: 00:20:52

And I think that's fair because again, like you said, these are people who have their own companies are working big, you know, worlds, and their downtime is Saturday or Sunday.

Rainey: 00:21:01

That's right.

Casey: 00:21:02

And that's. So I used to take it as kind of a. Because. Because my personality is very. I can't have any unread texts. I can't have any unread emails.

If anything is lit up on my thing, I'm like, oh, my God. And to my. To the detriment for sure. Because then I'm like, oh, didn't really. I forgot to respond.

But so basically every time something dings or comes through a phone or computer, I feel like I have to respond. And then it's taken. This has been like therapy is realizing they're just getting it off their plate. Brain dump.

And I don't have to respond till Monday. They're not expecting that.

Rainey: 00:21:41

Right.

Casey: 00:21:41

At least I know, because I know for myself.

Rainey: 00:21:44

Oh, God.

Casey: 00:21:45

Today at the gym, I was gonna send you a selfie because you were blowing up my phone, hearing all this text coming through after I texted you. Because of course, I did it on the Way in. And then I was gonna do a selfie to show you where I was. And I just see all is. All I see is a halo of gray.

And I. And I'm like.

Rainey: 00:22:03

And then you're booking your hair appointment.

Casey: 00:22:04

I'm booking my hair appointment. I'm not sending you the selfie because I'm like, this picture is nowhere. This is not out in the ethers, but it's just one of those.

And it's 7:00 in the morning, but I thought to do it last night, but I didn't want to blow up her phone last night. So anyways, it's just that moment where you're like, I need to know now.

Rainey: 00:22:20

I need to know this minute.

Casey: 00:22:22

So then I think the other important.

Rainey: 00:22:24

Thing that we have talked about is that when it is business hours and somebody does call you and your phone is on and you see that person that it's a client.

Answer the phone, whatever the conversation is, even if it's going to be a difficult one because something isn't going according to perfect plan, that phone call is going to be a much easier phone call than the one two hours from now or tomorrow. Answer the phone and it might be a happy phone call. You never know. I know I have been pleasantly surprised.

Casey: 00:22:59

Yes. Because it goes both ways.

Rainey: 00:23:02

It does.

Casey: 00:23:03

And the pleasantly surprised one gets far less airtime than this. So I wish everyone. I just assume is. Assume. Good intent.

Rainey: 00:23:14

I love that.

Casey: 00:23:15

But they aren't always. So we do get nervous.

And that is, oh, my gosh, the amount of times, you know, you just look and you look at the phone going, I don't have it in me right now, but I gotta do this.

Rainey: 00:23:28

Cause we have our names and big lights on the front of a building. So you answer your phone.

Casey: 00:23:33

Answer your phone. It's always better to have done it that way than to respond in a text. Yep, you're right.

Rainey: 00:23:40

Because what we do is not brain surgery. Right. And it can be fixed. Whatever it is. That is the issue of the moment. It can be fixed.

And I'm continually reminding people around us, you know, this is not. Nobody's flying an airplane into a building. Nobody's driving into a crowded street. This is a home.

And we have the luxury of having the resources to work through whatever it is that we're frustrated by at the moment.

Casey: 00:24:07

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:24:07

And it does happen.

Casey: 00:24:08

Yeah, it does happen. And oftentimes what comes of it, I like that. Creative, you know, it's an opportunity for creativity. So you get that call and you're like, oh, gosh.

What Wait, they thought it was this and it's this. You know, there's a measurement problem or something else happens on the job site that they didn't anticipate. Right?

Rainey: 00:24:26

Yep.

Casey: 00:24:26

But always fixable.

Rainey: 00:24:29

Always.

Casey: 00:24:30

As long as you have a good team and a contractor. And you know that back you.

Because there's been many times that have been the reason that something maybe was misbeasured or I ordered a sink that came in, you know, 2 inches, whatever size off and I have to eat that and because it's called a cost.

Rainey: 00:24:52

Of doing business, baby.

Casey: 00:24:54

It's marketing dollars. But you have to own it and then scramble like a right thing to get it fixed.

Rainey: 00:25:01

Yeah, that's exactly.

Casey: 00:25:03

There is never going to be a time where because with that and we joke marketing dollars. But it is because somebody will bad mouth that to everyone who listens. They might not say anything that you fixed it or whatever. The good.

Rainey: 00:25:17

It's way more fun to talk about the.

Casey: 00:25:19

The But I'd much rather keep my name out of their mouth in a bad way. So you know, and it's my.

Rainey: 00:25:24

That's who you are.

Casey: 00:25:25

We are at your core. We will make sure that this thing is taken care of. But you're absolutely right. Everything can be fixed on these job sites.

Rainey: 00:25:31

And I think also you were talking about having a good team. A team can be good and have each person looking out for their own interests. Right.

The builder can be looking out for themselves, we can be looking out for ourselves. The architect can be looking out for themselves.

But if everyone is looking out for the client and we're back to sort of reframing the entire process and talking about this, this is about the client's dream. And we're all here because the client has a dream and that dream overrides everything.

And if we're all focused on that purpose, everyone should end up winning, including the client and all of us individually.

Casey: 00:26:14

Yes, absolutely.

Rainey: 00:26:15

And I think sometimes when we have a selfish member of the team and we've all been on projects like that, it makes it more of a challenge. And so the team is everything.

Casey: 00:26:25

It absolutely is. Because behind the scenes we're working with them.

Rainey: 00:26:30

Yep.

Casey: 00:26:31

You know, the client hopefully only knows. I kind of knows parents.

And not that the client is like a child at all, but parents are just put on a happy face to make sure everything's great at home. And then behind closed doors is when they're like, oh, shit, yes, I forgot this. I didn't sign up Billy for this.

Or we don't have money, whatever the thing is. But the kids don't have to be privy to it. Clients don't have to be privy to all of the nonsense. And that's to your point though.

The good team is never talking about whoever might have been the. Whatever missed something on the deal, but not calling that out of you.

Rainey: 00:27:07

That's right.

Casey: 00:27:08

And there's been times I've had a contractor or something kind of, you know, throw us under the bus for stuff that we do or.

Rainey: 00:27:14

Or maybe didn't do.

Casey: 00:27:15

Yeah. And budget wise or whatever.

And it's always a very awkward conversation because you're literally having to backpedal or stand up for yourself in a way that you're like, what just happened?

Rainey: 00:27:26

And it robs from the client's experience because totally unnecessarily, totally unnecessary because now.

Casey: 00:27:31

They'Re in the middle of this thing that's really awkward for everybody. That is unnecessary.

Rainey: 00:27:35

Right.

Casey: 00:27:35

And the client shouldn't have to deal or be the go between. So. Yeah.

Rainey: 00:27:38

And we talk about that at contract signing, about there will be things that happen that we keep from them. It is nothing that will impact the budget or the finished product.

But knowing that we will effort to be exactly the way they expect them to do and that they don't have to see sort of the behind the scenes. Which makes me think about remodeling. You know, remodeling is truly a shit show. I mean, there is not any other way.

I mean, can you think of another way to put that? I don't know. It just is.

Casey: 00:28:10

It's a good show to watch. I mean, the shit show is.

Rainey: 00:28:13

It's for a good reason.

Casey: 00:28:14

All that is it. It doesn't go to plan ever. Ever.

Rainey: 00:28:19

And so I don't care how great your drawings are, how great the design is, how many meetings you've had, how lovely there is something that's gonna go wrong. And so we talk about. We call it the sausage making. Right.

And so the more things about the sausage making that the client doesn't know about, the happier they are with the process and certainly with the results.

Casey: 00:28:42

Yes.

Rainey: 00:28:42

And we talk about that roller coaster. Right. So. And I think that we shared this back and forth you years ago, because.

Casey: 00:28:49

I. I had created a what to expect when you're expecting a remodel.

Rainey: 00:28:53

Yes.

Casey: 00:28:53

And then, and then we're talking to you and you then shared your like, trajectory of what it looks like to remodel the emotional.

Rainey: 00:29:00

Everybody is so excited when it's demo day. Right. And on, on the, on the chart it's very high, right? The point on the graph is very, very high.

And then we start doing things like framing, rewiring, moving H vac, the most plumbing, sexy things. You can't make those things sexy. They take a long time. They cost a lot of money. They're ugly. And it just seems like nothing's happening.

And I'm telling you, that's the lowest part on the graph. Everybody's freaking miserable at that point. They think it's never gonna end. And then they get excited when you put sheetrock on, right?

And then when they go to paint everybody. I literally had a client say this to me last week. She goes, well, we're gonna paint this whole 6,000 square foot house, right?

And it's just gon take a couple of days with the crew. And I'm talking about trim, cabinets, all the walls, all the. All of the things. And I was like, let's go with six weeks, maybe seven.

Because just a week, week and a.

Casey: 00:30:02

Half is just prep, just prep.

Rainey: 00:30:05

And if you're not spending that time, you don't want that product we're talking about. And then you're spraying the cabinets and you're anyway.

Casey: 00:30:12

And then more sanding and then more of this. That so. And so one of the things that's helpful is when you've had projects done in your own house. So you know kind of what it feels like.

Rainey: 00:30:23

Yeah.

Casey: 00:30:24

When we had our huge remodel in 17, was this after Harvey? Yes.

Rainey: 00:30:30

The paint and the water was how high in your house?

Casey: 00:30:33

Four feet.

Rainey: 00:30:33

Oh, four feet. Okay. Just four feet.

Casey: 00:30:35

But I will say, I will take a flood over. You were talking about that so many damn times to get stuff, remove stuff.

Anyways, I felt like I was playing hide and seek with our painters in the house. It was like a Where's Waldo? I'd come in and I couldn't ever find the. Are they sleeping? But like, they just. They're so high from the fumes.

At one point, I don't know if they're napping. They're like. It was so. Matt and I were losing our ever loving minds. It was six weeks, but we're so.

Rainey: 00:31:05

Thankful for the painters.

Casey: 00:31:07

And I'm like, where the effort are y'all? But I feel her because it was like, no, this is.

Rainey: 00:31:12

This is today.

Casey: 00:31:13

This is two days. No, this is seven weeks. And slow as molasses.

Rainey: 00:31:19

If it's going to be done well.

Casey: 00:31:20

If it's done well.

Rainey: 00:31:21

Now can you. Can people go in and slap paint on a wall?

Please do not write into us and tell us that your brother in law painted your 6,000 square foot house in a day. I just. We're talking about something completely different and then they get excited about paint.

But you know, cabinets take a long time and then just the finish and punches. Two weeks on a remodel and talking about that whole process. So the rollercoaster of a remodel is beyond but paint in of itself.

Casey: 00:31:51

So you know, we do as much as we can on the front end. Right. You're doing all the selections, tile selections, you do the guides and every possible thing, hardware, lighting, everything.

It's all in the spec book and it's ready to go. And ultimately it's always, you know, do you have your paint colors? And for me there's always an inspo.

Rainey: 00:32:09

Yep.

Casey: 00:32:10

At the very beginning.

Rainey: 00:32:11

Right.

Casey: 00:32:11

But paint colors are the last thing and that goes up ideally. Like floors are in plastics off the walls and we're throwing paint color up for samples and getting the buy in on. On contractors.

Rainey: 00:32:22

You do samples? Oh, I don't allow samples.

Casey: 00:32:26

You just trust the color's gonna be amazing and the 6,000 square feet. Oh my God. Then this is where. This is so exciting because I am like three colors.

Rainey: 00:32:35

It would make the. I just in my experience, it's not that I don't allow it. That sounds really bossy.

And of course we've done samples before, but my experiences is that when we do samples on site, when all the lights maybe are not in because we don't put in the can lights and everything until paint and so.

Casey: 00:32:56

Oh, you're after paint, right?

Rainey: 00:32:58

Because you can't. I don't allow the light fixtures to go on until after paint because of the overspray and blah blah, blah. And so it's going to look different.

And this is what I. And I just have found that it causes massive delays and anxiety in clients.

And this is when they bring aunt Betty and uncle George and neighbor Susie and you know, whomever from the gym over to look at the paint colors and they all have a. And the project shuts down. And so I am like, this is where you're gonna have to trust me. This is an amazing color.

And under this 27 Kelvin light, we're going to be good. And I've got. I got to knock on wood.

Casey: 00:33:35

I know I'm going to. I don't know. I just for me personally it's a.

Rainey: 00:33:40

Big decision and I, I get you.

Casey: 00:33:42

Just every color looks so different on the wall and with that floor versus this and this light coming in this room, and it's totally different than that room. So we're going to have to alter. So I'm a big. I'm a.

Rainey: 00:33:53

You're a big sample person. How funny that we both. We've never talked about that. We process that completely differently.

Casey: 00:34:01

Totally different.

Rainey: 00:34:01

Yeah.

Casey: 00:34:01

So I'm like, sorry to the contractor. Sorry. You're gonna get these trim colors, and you're gonna do the. And. Yeah. And they're like, there's 18 colors here. I'm like, there's a lot.

Rainey: 00:34:11

And you're gonna like doing all 18.

Casey: 00:34:13

Of those because they're all different. You know, I'm not throwing one color in a whole thing. And it's all cabinetry anyway.

Rainey: 00:34:18

No, I understand.

Casey: 00:34:19

Very much so. That, for me, is tricky because you want it all pretty in a bow and to hand over.

Rainey: 00:34:26

Right.

Casey: 00:34:27

But that's not always that last part.

Rainey: 00:34:29

Sort of a TBD. Okay.

Casey: 00:34:30

So yours is not a TV.

Rainey: 00:34:31

Now, if I. In the 25 years that I've been doing this, that there wasn't a time that I repainted a cabinet. Nope.

I have repainted a cabinet before, but the number of those is minuscule compared to the amount of time that I would spend trying to have the client pick from their samples.

Casey: 00:34:50

Or, like you said, having the entire tennis team come over after lunch.

Rainey: 00:34:53

I can't.

Casey: 00:34:54

Which is my favorite.

Rainey: 00:34:55

I can't. You know what? That would be a great podcast.

Just when we talk about rogue clients is when they have their personal design team who are not designers, that inform their decisions and how to handle that. We need to add that to our work.

Casey: 00:35:10

That is because I think, and I bet people who are listening, whether you're a designer or just somebody listening, you've either brought friends in to get their opinion or you've had a client who does. And they do it to everyone, I think.

Rainey: 00:35:25

And part of that is normal human behavior, right? Yeah.

Casey: 00:35:27

If you're excited, you've got this great thing going on. You want to share it. It's just when they have now said you had three different opinions about that table, and maybe that's not.

Rainey: 00:35:37

That's not it. I liken it to probably a doctor. When I go to a doctor and he tries to tell me or she tries to tell me something, I'm like, yeah.

But when I Googled it, it said. And they're like, awesome. Google doesn't have the degrees that I have from, you know, UT med school and Baylor and the like.

So do we want to listen to this or do we want to not that we're the end all, be all, but. But sometimes if you have too many opinions, it's like, well, and that's.

Casey: 00:36:02

I guess it is. Which is another discussion probably too.

But clients fall in love with the thing or they're really happy and then they question themselves or second guess it if somebody comes in. And unfortunately, you watch it a lot. Natural people like to find fault. Fault.

Rainey: 00:36:20

Yeah.

Casey: 00:36:20

They just sort of like to be the turd in the punch bowl a little better. The turd in the punch bowl. Maybe that's just.

Rainey: 00:36:28

I love you. You make me laugh.

Casey: 00:36:29

But you know, just the one thing that's just like, wah, wah, you know.

Rainey: 00:36:35

Sweet, that beautiful from. That totally steals it.

Casey: 00:36:38

Whether. Whatever the reason, who knows? And then it makes them second her second guess or them second guess what they've decided and you're.

Rainey: 00:36:46

It's like.

Casey: 00:36:47

And then you have to buy. Then you have to reel it back in in such a way that then they're really unsure.

Rainey: 00:36:53

Yeah.

Casey: 00:36:53

It's just an awkward spot.

Rainey: 00:36:54

Which is the psychology part of our business.

Casey: 00:36:57

And too where we're just like, oh.

Rainey: 00:36:59

My God, I cannot. With this. Just do this cocktail.

Casey: 00:37:02

Beautiful. Let's be done. Everything's perfect, you know.

Rainey: 00:37:05

Yeah. So that you can actually live.

Casey: 00:37:07

So you can move in.

Rainey: 00:37:08

Yeah. And live. Yeah. So reframing the experience for the client. It is such an important part of what we do.

We do it every day, sometimes in little spurts and sometimes in hour long segments. But it's important. It's part of what we love.

Casey: 00:37:23

It is. And it's. It's why people hopefully include us in their projects.

Rainey: 00:37:29

That's exactly right.

Casey: 00:37:30

Because we've got the best interest at heart and steward their money as best we can.

Rainey: 00:37:36

That's exactly. All to protect that dream, right?

Casey: 00:37:38

Exactly. It's their dream. I'm like, how many people get to do this? I've never got to build. It's a beautiful thing.

Rainey: 00:37:45

That's awesome. So what is something I was thinking about, what is something.

What is something that you've sort of noticed recently that sort of captured your attention?

Casey: 00:37:58

Maybe because I'm facing the parking lot, but cars, colors in cars. I'm a car person. Are you a car person? I don't know if this is about you.

Rainey: 00:38:06

So I'm not a car person. I'm just not a car person. I enjoy driving a nice car, but Tom could.

My husband could bring me when it's time, when this one shits the bed and I need a new one and he'll drive up and I'll be like, thank you. Off. You know, But I know that about you, that you are a car person. And, girl, you look good in your cars. I'm not gonna lie.

Casey: 00:38:28

No. Well, you. You always have beautiful cars, so I just kind of assume maybe you're a car person. But if it's a Tom showing up in it, I don't like the.

Rainey: 00:38:35

I don't like the car shopping experience.

Casey: 00:38:37

So take me next. I can't. I get something. I get high. I love the car shopping experience. I love the moment, like, leaving. And I. It's. I just.

Anyways, cars are something that I. I just enjoy. I like that buying them. I like driving.

Rainey: 00:38:52

So what have you noticed with the.

Casey: 00:38:53

Cars is that whole thing is the colors. The colors have changed. You don't really see those, like, vibrant, like the reds, thank goodness, because they kind of get insurance.

I think was higher on them.

Rainey: 00:39:03

Right.

Casey: 00:39:03

But, like, things are just muted and softer earth tones and I don't know, there's these, like, matte colors and wrapped.

Rainey: 00:39:11

Like this heathered blue is something that I've been noticing. And I'm like, oh, that's so beautiful. Do you think you'd get tired of something like that?

Casey: 00:39:18

That's a good question. I. I'm. Cause I go get them so freak or, you know, every couple years. So I don't think I would. But I always buy the color, like, for color.

I'm not a black or white person, which I know most. A lot of people are. They only have black cars. And it's so fun to watch you.

Rainey: 00:39:36

Drive up and whatever, but interesting. I have noticed that too. So it's kind of like, did the.

Does the car industry following the interior design industry, that's following the fashion industry.

Casey: 00:39:48

Who creates first? It's fashion, isn't it? Start with fashion. I've always thought so.

Rainey: 00:39:54

Then interiors, and then cars and those kinds of things.

Casey: 00:39:57

Yeah. So maybe so. Yeah. Which would make sense because we've kind of. We've talked about noticing the color changes in our. Yeah, yeah. So that's a fun one.

How about you?

Rainey: 00:40:05

Just the same thing we were talking about is just the car thing. And sort of interesting watching the different trends trickle down through the industries and so. Well, I loved today's show.

I am so reminded about how parallel our firms are, you know, and then.

Casey: 00:40:24

There'S just those nuances, though, that are different, that make me happy that there are differences to all of us. And I think that's.

Rainey: 00:40:29

And that's okay.

Casey: 00:40:30

That's okay. The experience reframing the experience for the client is that exactly. Like we're not for everybody.

Rainey: 00:40:37

Right.

Casey: 00:40:37

Find your match, though. You might.

Rainey: 00:40:39

You know, I have a shirt that says that I'm not for everyone and.

Casey: 00:40:41

I love that shirt.

Rainey: 00:40:42

I should wear that someday.

Casey: 00:40:44

Actually, it's a good I should wear that. But it's true. Like, you don't have to. Just because your friend used me as a designer doesn't mean you're going to love me.

So go to rainy or go to, you know, there's a million of us. We're a dime a dozen.

Rainey: 00:40:53

That's it. That's it. Yeah.

Casey: 00:40:55

But it's.

Rainey: 00:40:55

But I enjoyed today's show so much. So that's it for today's show.

Casey: 00:41:00

So if you have any topics you want to chat with us about, email us@helloeframingdesign.com and you can follow me on Instagram @cassandra brandinteriors and you can follow.

Rainey: 00:41:13

Me @rainierichardsoninteriors on Instagram. Or you can follow both of us at Reframing Design on the ig.

Casey: 00:41:21

So, like, review and follow wherever you get your podcast and be sure to.

Rainey: 00:41:27

Share us with your friends and family. Thank you for joining us.

Casey: 00:41:30

Thank you.

Outro: 00:41:33

That's a wrap for this episode of the Art of Interior Design. We hope you had a blast and found some inspiration to bring your dream space to life.

Rainey: 00:41:42

Life.

Outro: 00:41:42

Feeling inspired to start your own home transformation? Contact us@helloeframingdesign.com we want to help you make it happen.

Don't forget to subscribe, share and leave a review this show was edited and produced by Truth Work Media. Until next time, remember your space is your story. Make it beautiful.