The Rogue Client: The Importance of Setting Boundaries in Creative Work

Casey: 00:00:32

Hi, I'm Casey.

Rainey: 00:00:33

And I'm Rainey. Welcome to the Reframing Design podcast. If you're a new designer, a seasoned designer, a homeowner, or a home enthusiast, you are in the right place.

Casey: 00:00:44

We are going to talk about all things design. Our stories, our opinions, our experiences, and we're probably going to chase a few rabbits down a few rabbit holes.

But one thing we can guarantee, we will not talk about politics.

Rainey: 00:00:58

Okay. Aloha.

Casey: 00:01:00

Aloha. Mahalo.

Rainey: 00:01:02

How things. Oh, mahalo. I forgot that word. Here we are. So I am going to start with our art today because it is so fantastic and I'm so excited to share about it.

If you're listening on the pod only, you might want to jump over to YouTube to check this one out. But this piece of art is by Kevin Chupik. And what he does is he takes sort of western imagery and he marries it with vintage modernity.

And it just is sort of this really cool thing. This is actually going to go in a client's house and we, like, triple framed it and we put on conservation glass. So it's just extra rad.

Casey: 00:01:44

It's just rad.

Rainey: 00:01:45

Just wanted to showcase this artist. Fantastic.

Casey: 00:01:49

And the funny thing is, and we were just discussing this, so we, you know, when we film, we never discuss what we're wearing. We really don't discuss anything. What pictures we're bringing at all. And the flowers come and we kind of do our own flowers and stuff.

And so the fact that it's sort of everything tied in for this was just.

Rainey: 00:02:04

It's a moment.

Casey: 00:02:05

It's a moment. We're very.

Rainey: 00:02:06

It's a moment. And I probably need to see.

Casey: 00:02:08

I just want to be her. So Please jump on YouTube to see her, the woman. Yeah.

Rainey: 00:02:12

Love.

Casey: 00:02:12

Yes. He's fabulous, too.

Rainey: 00:02:14

So wins. What you got?

Casey: 00:02:16

Oh, gosh. So good. So a project that's about to be completed. It's a big one.

It's one of those that turned, you know, you just pulled one thread and it went unraveled. And so started off to just be like, you know, some tile and maybe some paint and a few things. And.

And so I just like, I can do totally gc, that one because it's not like. I don't know, it's.

Rainey: 00:02:40

Can you say it's like 7,000 square feet hugeness.

Casey: 00:02:43

Yes. And so things just kept changing and, you know, we went from just. Yeah. So. But we're close. Like, family. Gets to move in in two weeks.

Rainey: 00:02:49

Can't wait to see the photos.

Casey: 00:02:50

It has been. But it's one of those where. Yeah. So the win is it's all sort of the logistics of the monkey bearing, you know, that we have.

It's all coming together, and it's just so beautiful.

Rainey: 00:03:01

And you get to put that monkey to bed. And it's not monkey to go bed, not monkey.

Casey: 00:03:06

Because these bags are not.

Rainey: 00:03:08

Not it.

Casey: 00:03:09

Yeah. So that's my win. It's almost. We're there. So fun.

Rainey: 00:03:11

That's awesome.

My win is also work related today, and that is we did a presentation yesterday on a massive gut job remodel in Jamaica beach, and Reagan is the lead on that one, and she put her heart and soul into this. It was kind of her vibe. And the clients came in yesterday, and they actually signed the full contract at the table.

And then they went to lunch and they wired the first payment. They're like 100% approved. We want everything because we were all prepared. If they were like, we want to reduce this by X number of dollars.

The few places that we felt like they could cut if they wanted to, and they're like, more cutting. Not. I don't know that. That. That's only happened like three or four times in my career where they went full full Monty.

Casey: 00:04:03

So I'm moment and cry. I have not had one of those.

Rainey: 00:04:06

Yes, yes.

Casey: 00:04:08

Not like that. No. That is just. I'm just kidding. But like, happy tears. Like that exists. That exists out there.

Rainey: 00:04:15

Thank you. I was most excited for Reagan because, I mean, she was working weekends and evenings finding the perfect pieces, so.

Casey: 00:04:24

And it showed.

Rainey: 00:04:24

And it showed. It's. It's. It' Those. So good.

Casey: 00:04:29

Win one of those.

Rainey: 00:04:30

Well, welcome back to Reframing, where we open the kimono, we let you see behind the scenes. We talk about the real life of interior design, and sometimes it's not all that pretty. I'm Rainie.

Casey: 00:04:45

And I'm Casey.

And yeah, we're here today to just sort of flip the script a little bit on what people might think we do all the time or what it looks like in the pretty prints and magazines and TV and sort of the behind the scenes that we really get to deal with most of the time. Somebody once said, as a designer, especially if you're the principal owner, you only do 10% of design in your day. 10%.

So hard to believe all the other things. So today we're gonna talk about our con. Yeah.

Rainey: 00:05:14

Content. What are we talking about?

Casey: 00:05:16

Rogue clients. I think that one hit a nerve with a lot of people.

So we're gonna really kind of dive into some experiences that we've had and just share, not to call anybody out.

Rainey: 00:05:24

Yes. We touched on this in an earlier pod and said we would come back and dive into this.

And sort of the fine line for Casey and I is that we want to tell the listeners and the viewers the real. But we don't want to out clients that have paid us good money and that we really wanted to be a blessing to them and give them an amazing home.

But like in every industry, sometimes it doesn't go according to plan with the client.

Casey: 00:05:54

And when that happens is when you get the contract up on your documents and you change things, because it is typically because we have not handled something in the contract or in the communication on the front end, which we try and talk about as much as possible here. And so it does end up falling on us, but it does happen. And it's not fun.

Rainey: 00:06:17

It is not fun. So we're going to dive into this topic and let you know our experiences. Okay. So the whole business of rogue clients.

Casey: 00:06:26

You even have a scared look on your face because I know.

Rainey: 00:06:28

Like, you're like, I know.

Casey: 00:06:30

Because it's also like you're saying we don't want to out anybody. This is not the shame train. This isn't.

Rainey: 00:06:35

We don't have time for that.

Casey: 00:06:37

But it's very real. And there's been times I've pulled into my driveway. Not many. One in particular that I pulled in.

And while I was pulling in, Matt was standing with a glass of wine in the driveway.

Rainey: 00:06:50

Best husband moment ever.

Casey: 00:06:52

It was so special. But I had called in tears from a client's house on my way home, and he heard the cry and he came running. Because it does.

It will bring us to our knees.

Rainey: 00:07:06

Because we do what we do to really serve people and make an amazing positive impact on their lives. And as human behavior and human experiences happen, sometimes it just doesn't work.

And I think in 25, almost 26 years, I have three experiences that come to the top of mind.

And I think it's important that we talk about these things, because when it happens to baby designers or even experienced designers or maybe your client, and you don't know what went wrong, it's important that we talk about it.

Casey: 00:07:45

Yes, it's huge. And Raini and I got to just a sidebar, but we both had some awesome younger designers shadow us last week, and we had to do something together.

So they met, but we asked them, what do you guys want to hear about?

And they sort of wanted to hear about these because it's scary and you don't know and you think you might be the only one who really screwed something up.

Rainey: 00:08:09

So if you are one of those and you're dealing with it and you want to talk to us about it, please reach out. Not that we have any great advice except for always do the meet you.

Casey: 00:08:19

On your driveway with a glass of wine.

Rainey: 00:08:20

Glass of wine, yeah. Just give us your address. We've got you. Or maybe even the client.

Casey: 00:08:26

We've got you too because I knocked. Definitely go both ways. And so it's a relationship and you.

Rainey: 00:08:31

Don'T even know where it went wrong, where it went off the rails sometimes.

So one of the rogue clients that comes to mind for me is sometimes we have clients and there might be something going on in the relationship with the people at the house and you between the partners and you bear the brunt of that. And I don't think in this case it was intentional.

I just think it was maybe part of the way that they worked, you know, and so when you're creating a home for two people to make a life and that things can be lost in translation, that's probably how I should say that. But decisions would be made on site during the day with one of the partners there. And we would do that because that's what you do.

And then the other partner wouldn't like it and partner A would say, well, I never said that. So we had to start documenting on site and, and get on site sign offs for very small things. And we had to really. That is where though.

Because that was really on us after the first time. The first time it was like, oh, that's a little weird. When it happened the second time, it's on us.

So that is where we started leaving sites and going back to the studio and we would do a follow up email and it would go to both, all three, four, however many people were involved in the project. And we would do follow up and just say if anything in here is incorrect or if we misunderstood something, please let us know.

And so that's what we do though, right? We learn and we change how we do things. And so that was a really tough rogue client lesson.

Casey: 00:10:28

So long process with them.

Rainey: 00:10:32

Long, much longer than it should have.

Casey: 00:10:34

Been because of this back and forth.

And so when you come back to the site after that first or second time of I don't know when that, you know, like the one client A saying that, did they ever. Do they acknowledge it? Did they?

Rainey: 00:10:51

No. Oh no. And even while it was going on, it was, it just wasn't. It Wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't a best moment. It wasn't a best moment for anybody there.

Casey: 00:11:04

Gotcha.

Rainey: 00:11:05

And we all just sort of let it slide and we had to internally clean it up and make sure we could get to the end of the project. And so that's how we dealt with it. And then it became part of our process. Right.

But it was very, very, very difficult because it sort of puts a little stain on the project, you know, and that's the first. A little shit stain. And that's the first client that comes to mind. We have been so lucky.

We have had probably 100, I don't even know how many clients over the year. Maybe even more than that. That it just. So much respect and so much kindness and so much goodness and so much.

And again, I can't say this was an intent. Intentional.

Casey: 00:11:45

Right.

Rainey: 00:11:46

I just think sometimes, you know, we're stuck in a moment we can't get out of it. The famous lyrics. And I think we just were pulled into that tidal wave.

Casey: 00:11:55

Their dynamic got into yours. And I think that is such an interesting moment of just. We really are like therapy.

I mean people say it all the time, but we really, because we know all the ins and outs of a home in the meetings, we get to the nitty gritty of how people live and how they communicate with each other.

And so one thing I've tried really hard and I think you're really good about, I really don't talk about family, the couple dynamic with, you know, it's just. It really almost is like therapy. And you don't share that stuff. But it's mind boggling some of the fights or the things where you witness.

And there's one that comes to mind that I pulled out of the project because of the volatility and the meanness from one spouse to another. And it was unbelievable. I've never seen anything like it.

And so having not grown up in an environment like that or be in one, it's really uncomfortable. Right. And. But you do see how people.

Rainey: 00:12:53

And it affects you.

Casey: 00:12:54

It does. Because you're. You don't trust what you're. They're saying because you just watched them attack their spouse.

And if they're attacking a spouse, like were they coming after you? And ultimately they will. I'm not saying I felt like I count said ultimately 89 times last time. I need to take that word out of my vocabulary.

It's a big so. But. But that is a hard thing for us because we are people pleasers and.

Rainey: 00:13:15

We want it all, and we are on the inside.

Casey: 00:13:18

Feels like a slap when you. You sort of are like, wait, what we. That was that not what was said on the job site. I could have sworn that we all agreed on that. And then.

But you realize that's not happening at the home. That's not okay for them to change something, which is so sad. It's not easy so then. But it did change your processes a little bit.

Rainey: 00:13:36

It does change our processes.

And I think that one of the things that is important that I've learned, and I know that you've learned this in your business too, because we've talked about it, and that is you are responsible for guiding the client. You are the guide. And if something's going sideways, we have the responsibility to get it right.

And if we can't, we might have to part ways like what you said.

And one of the things that I'm proud about with our designer friend group is we've all had some tough experiences, but we are really good about not outing our clients. Like, nobody is like, well, Mr. And Mrs. So and so.

Casey: 00:14:18

It.

Rainey: 00:14:18

We don't talk about people like that.

Casey: 00:14:20

And that sounds like everybody signed NDAs or something in the best possible way. You just don't talk. Yeah, yeah. It's just.

Rainey: 00:14:26

We just don't.

Casey: 00:14:27

An experience happened and we share that because I think we have to.

Rainey: 00:14:31

We get advice. Yeah.

Casey: 00:14:34

But we don't out clients because that's not. And we're not. Sometimes we're not seeing clients in their best, you know, a hundred percent. This is such a stressful time.

And I try and, you know, we try and say how exciting it is and it's so fun and it's not fun for people sometimes. And the money thing, which we've talked about, is always a little bit sticky. So we get people in their worst faces.

And a lot of times things are happening behind the scenes that we still don't know about.

Rainey: 00:15:00

That's it.

Casey: 00:15:01

And so it's just like they might have gotten fired during the process or somebody's gotten ill or a family member sick or they're. They just are not doing well as a couple. So, yeah, we can.

Rainey: 00:15:11

Or maybe they're in menopause and they.

Casey: 00:15:12

Don'T and they forget stuff.

Rainey: 00:15:15

That's it.

Casey: 00:15:15

And then she forgot that she told you. Yes.

Rainey: 00:15:18

So. And then we're going to make sure it just doesn't happen again.

Casey: 00:15:21

So. And I know you. You know, it's. There are a few of them, but there are enough at least.

I feel like Moments where clients, the rogue client, you know, you get the text that they are so excited, and they're at Home Depot on a Saturday and can we get this plumbing or something? Or we've decided to buy this. And again, where you're like, it's one of those moments of, oh, God, that's not in the contract.

That will be on Monday morning. But please don't.

Rainey: 00:15:46

You're not going to go shop for your own things after you've engaged me, which there's also a side comment about that, Right. They're going on a vacation and they find a piece of art that they're excited about, and they want to know if a piece of art is going to work.

Please send that to me.

Casey: 00:16:02

Yes.

Rainey: 00:16:02

That is far different than, I bought these 87 things and I need you to work them into my primary bedroom. And you're like, I don't even know when. It makes my eye twitch.

Casey: 00:16:13

It does, because it happens because they're excited. So it's sort of that.

Rainey: 00:16:19

And it's their home. It's their.

Casey: 00:16:20

Their home, so they should get to go shopping for it. But it does throw a wrench in how the rest of the stuff goes. And there have been a couple over the years that I.

I really have, because Matt has said this about our kids a little bit, and it kind of equates to the clients sometimes where you just feel like you're being pulled behind a. Like a water ski, behind a ski boat, right? And you're just, like, hitting wakes and.

Rainey: 00:16:41

You'Re, like, hanging on.

Casey: 00:16:42

Fun, fun. And then you're just hanging on for dear life. And sometimes you just have to let it go. And I have let go on a couple and just. I'm like, oh, I.

I am no longer in this rodeo with them.

Rainey: 00:16:53

And then you go, I'm just not going to photograph this project, right? Because this is not my.

Casey: 00:16:57

This is not mine.

Rainey: 00:16:58

This is not my work. And. But this is their home. And so you have to sort of navigate that.

But contract, our contract has changed over the years to make that a little tighter, because I feel like it's. If you go to an expensive restaurant and you order the chef special, but you go back in the.

In the kitchen and you pull, you know, the ingredients out of your purse and you're like, I want you to make that meal, but I want you to use these ingredients. And so at some point, you just can't. And it's not being mean, ugly, any of those things. You just can't.

Casey: 00:17:30

You just can't make it work. But what.

Rainey: 00:17:32

We will. Yeah. We will get this project done, and we. But I won't photograph it because it's not my work.

Casey: 00:17:39

And so have you had somebody go off on you or yell at you or anything happen to where that's.

Rainey: 00:17:46

I've never had a yeller. I've never had a yeller. I know that you had a yeller one time.

Casey: 00:17:52

Mariana was with me once on. We were. And it's. It will. It will take you back. Because this was a unicorn client, not a rogue client. A unicorn one.

Rainey: 00:18:03

Yeah. And I think when you shared that experience with me, I was so shocked. I was just shocked. I think when you. I felt so.

I was so offended and so upset by that whole thing. Was that your most rogue client that or. It wasn't a rogue. That was weird.

Casey: 00:18:21

That was the most volatile. It just went. But I think in that. That was one of those circumstances where I realized money really was an issue for them at that moment.

Rainey: 00:18:34

Became a stressor.

Casey: 00:18:34

It just. We were the easiest target and just lost it. And thank goodness. You know, Matt was in the car once and kind of heard part of it.

Although he was high as a kite. Cause I was taking him to the dentist to get some dental work, and he just popped that little pill that they say take 20 minutes before you come in.

So he's sort of all right. And. But he got enough to say, oh, okay. But, yeah. So anyways, we're not doing this. We're not doing that. But so there's. You know, we're just.

Again, we are in the most intimate time that we're spending people's money and we're in their homes, so we get that. But no, I think I. There's a. The memory that comes up the most is. And it was because it was a. It was a kind of a friend, and we were doing a trade.

Never again.

Rainey: 00:19:18

Oh, I'm gonna do this for you, and you're gonna do this for me. Trade.

Casey: 00:19:20

Trade. Yeah. Like your. Your collateral for my. Yeah, like, so. I knew it wasn't a good idea, but I had been wanting to do this kitchen.

Rainey: 00:19:29

Didn't listen to my gut.

Casey: 00:19:30

Didn't listen to my gut. But I'd wanted to do this kitchen for years. Cause it just. And great people. I love them, and they're good friends, and that'd be so fun. And so.

But they stopped having me to come out for stuff when that. And that's when it was still hourly. So it was still. Even though it was trade, it was still hourly.

So they and things went totally different on the design because husband decided, oh, why don't we do xyz? And they. It just kept. Because they became designers in the midst.

Rainey: 00:19:55

Of the time, but apparently they went.

Casey: 00:19:56

To school in that two weeks and became professional. So it was. So it just went to hell absolutely sideways.

And it bums me out to this day because the design was beautiful, the colors were beautiful, the backs, everything was gorgeous. And just elements of it, cabinetry that just didn't, you know, that they thought they could fix. And, you know, so then styles are wrong.

Is on this side, the window. And then you've got seven inches on those things where you're just like, oh, God, why? Nobody caught this. So. But again, rogue. They think they're.

They're professionals at that point because they've had a couple meetings. So you just.

Rainey: 00:20:32

I was going to ask about that. Have you ever had a client that became a professional during the process?

Casey: 00:20:36

Yeah, yeah, this. Yeah. And that's where it's really tricky. Right. Or if they just know just barely enough to get them in trouble and so they don't inquire. And then.

And then you do. And that's again where you just go, oh, my gosh, I can't reel this in. I've completely lost the thread.

Rainey: 00:20:51

Yeah, the train has left the station. Yeah.

Casey: 00:20:54

And. But it's on me every time I look back. And it's that like, are you the problem?

Or, you know, be the solution or the problem, and you can find where you. Where you stopped handling it for them or that how they felt.

Rainey: 00:21:07

So we recently had an experience, and we knew a client's budget, they wanted to do a massive remodel and furniture and the whole thing. And we knew what the top number was. This project was a little different for us in location, materials that had to be used, all sorts of things.

And we were doing a ton of work on the exterior, which we don't typically do, but this was a Repeat client from 13 years ago. Have a great relationship with them. And the numbers just started escalating.

And we knew we had a big presentation and design meeting coming up with them, and we were out of bounds. They had already proved the design and all the things, but we had underestimated what these other numbers were going to be.

So we're sitting around as a firm saying, okay, how are we going to handle this? Because there's only two ways to handle it.

You go into the live design meeting and you go, here's the design and here's what it's going to cost, and you blow them out of the water, or you know that number and you go ahead and take things out of the design so that you can hit that number and you say, here's what we had to take out to hit your number. Both of which could go really wrong. And so I made the decision. And we've talked about this before, Casey. We talk about it with our friends.

And I immediately thought to myself, pick up the damn phone. So I got up from the meeting table, went to the phone, and I called the client and I said, here's the thing. I know what you told us.

I know you love the design and approved it. We're going over and I want our meeting to be excellent and to be full of life.

And so do you want me to meet your number or do you want to know what the number is going to be for the design? And she said to me, first of all, I'm not going to be mad. I would never be mad because that was my fear. She said, but I.

What's the number looking like?

And I told her, and she goes, you know, we kind of thought that we could be there, and we've already, you know, everybody has their financial planner said, worst case scenario, we're thinking this, and you're under the worst, not by much, but you're under the worst case scenario.

Casey: 00:23:26

Don't go crazy.

Rainey: 00:23:27

Right? And so we want to see the real real in that meeting. And so after that meeting, they ended up doing the whole project.

But the husband pulled me aside and he said, I want you to know that I am so thankful that you called us before the weekend so that we could digest what it was we were walking into. And you gave us the choice whether to move forward in that capacity or to go ahead and rein it in. But if.

If you feel like things are going in a rogue place, whether it's pricing or it's whatever, pick up the phone and talk to people, because they're human beings. And I think a lot of times that communication, not email, can really sort of put everybody at ease.

Casey: 00:24:17

Right.

Rainey: 00:24:17

I mean, have you found that to be true for you?

Casey: 00:24:20

Yes. Once you have the conversation, I mean, sometimes it goes south. Like on this particular one that I just mentioned.

Rainey: 00:24:25

No saving it.

Casey: 00:24:26

No saving it.

Rainey: 00:24:27

Yeah, and that happens.

Casey: 00:24:29

It happened. And that was rough. And so. But again, then it's again, true colors, though. I'm like, okay, so we want that close.

You know, I'm trying to save more than just the friendship. I'm, you know, project. But so, yeah, but. But again, Wouldn't trade the picking up the phone and sitting.

Have I went and did the sit down and the whole thing.

Rainey: 00:24:52

Cause you claimed that you left it the right way.

Casey: 00:24:54

Yeah. You.

Rainey: 00:24:55

That's a big lesson.

Casey: 00:24:56

I can't not have this. But that's a really good point about picking up the phone before that meeting kind of thing. Because sometimes we do wonder. Yeah am I, you know.

Or even my biggest thing. I just, you know that insecurity of never wanting to let people down.

So it's like before a big presentation meeting especially I've had the thought of like okay, if I don't feel like I'm bringing what I want to bring to this, should I postpone this meeting? But I also am very respectful of people's time. Right. You gave them this. And so if people have to take out of their day. So I end up somehow rallying.

It's almost like I need less time sometimes. Cause that is that pressure.

Rainey: 00:25:39

But that's all that creativity in you.

Casey: 00:25:41

It does. I kind of love that a little bit. Sometimes too much time is too much time.

But it is that uncomfortable moment of letting somebody know I may have shut the bed and over committed what somebody called it a time optimist. If so I was a little bit too optimistic about getting this whole presentation together. So I can either do X, Y or Z, you know.

Rainey: 00:26:05

So you picked up the phone.

Casey: 00:26:06

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:26:06

And that just kind of kept that.

Casey: 00:26:07

People and they're like oh my gosh, that's perfect. I actually needed another week. I didn't want to reschedule but. Or you know. Yeah, show us what you've got.

Or I just realized in myself I'm just going to dig deep because I won't ever change an appointment if I don't.

Rainey: 00:26:20

If you don't have to.

Have you ever had a project where you're going to do the whole specifications hard surfaces and then the interiors and you get through the specifications and the client either runs out of money or runs out of money that they want to spend or becomes check writing weary we call it and they decide not to do the interiors at all or not do them fully and that sort of screws the whole project. Have you had that happen?

Casey: 00:26:54

Yes. Are you kidding? I wish I could say it was only a few, but so many clients get to that point and.

And a lot of times the contractors take it or the builder.

It's almost inevitably that's why the budget has just been blown on all the overages that they weren't expecting and so they have to move Back in with their Ikea furniture that they got in college and they're so bombed. Those damn bar stools that are just hideous, you know. And it sucks for us too, because we wanted to do the whole thing.

It's not even the money part of it at that point. It's really just we had the vision so everything that was chosen doesn't get to see the day.

And you just don't want a client to have to walk into their beautiful new home with their old Shagatta lafonte, you know, so have you had many.

Rainey: 00:27:37

We're doing it right now. We have a project right now, huge project in another state and the house went from 2,500 square feet to like 6,000 ish. All on the client. Right.

I wasn't part of any of that. And the builder just started building and they thought the price tag was going to be something and it has doubled.

And so we'll see what the client decides to do. The truth is, is there's limited amounts of money that you can want to. Your financial planner will allow you to spend. And when that comes to an end.

That comes to an end. And when you're in the middle of building a house, the train is on the track and it's barreling down. You can't stop that.

And so we all understand that. But this is the way I talk to the client. I understand the train's going down the track and you can't stop it. This is where we are.

And I'll help you get to whatever end you need to get to. But we just have some decisions to make. And there's no shame. There's no. I'm not mad. I'm not.

I'm sad that that client won't get to experience the outcome that they so desperately wanted. And it should have been reined in a long time before. But it's a builder thing. But I don't think the builder's being unreasonable or unfair.

The size of the project just got big.

Casey: 00:29:08

Right?

Rainey: 00:29:08

Yeah.

Casey: 00:29:09

And every builder handles those things differently.

Rainey: 00:29:11

That's right.

Casey: 00:29:12

And some one that I work working with on project right now and I do appreciate every single. Every other week he calls a meeting and he has those change orders ready and he explains exactly why.

And the client knows they can sign off or, or not, but others will just kind of take the. Oh, I guess. Yeah. If we could raise the ceiling. Yeah, that's an option. I can do that. Okay. Well, yeah, if you could go up.

Rainey: 00:29:38

And on the final invoice and then $20,000.

Casey: 00:29:41

And you're. They're like, wait, why? I would have loved to have known that. So it's again, communication. Communication.

Rainey: 00:29:48

But do you help with that communication? If you think that will be an issue. Do you say, can we go ahead and talk about the cost of this?

Casey: 00:29:57

Yes.

Rainey: 00:29:57

Yeah.

Casey: 00:29:57

Yes. And a couple builders, one in particular, Mariana's uncle.

Actually he and I have worked together on so many projects that he now knows because I was like, do not give them a bid for a $4 or $5 tile. Wait, I will tell you what, what we have already selected. So you can put that in and price out accordingly.

Because I don't want them coming and you know, having this humongous overage because they weren't expecting something that the builder has put in. And everybody's just got that blanket contract and we're still working with builders who still have that that they've had for 20 years.

And in their eyes. And I don't, I'm not shitting on them, but. But they're like, well, it's just a number. And then we built. But the client doesn't know that.

Rainey: 00:30:39

The client doesn't know that. So which is why the designer is. So we should do a whole pod on allowances.

Casey: 00:30:45

On allowances. And for the builder to understand if you don't have the designer early enough, let your client know at least these numbers are placeholders.

But these are going to most likely change. They're just going placeholder. Most of them don't say that the client doesn't know.

So they'd see this huge number and they well, God, that's gotta take care of everything. And it doesn't.

Rainey: 00:31:04

And it doesn't. No.

Casey: 00:31:06

And it's hard to. Because during the process things do come up and things do change.

And like we talked about it last episode, this one, you know, should have just been paint some hardware and you know, now it's a full on deal, which is great. But it's again it's like.

But I will say I just had the experience at this particular house and we were talking about the bathroom and I go, you know, I throw out a number. And I felt really good about that. Cause I'm pretty cool good about doing.

And the numbers have come back a lot higher and I have had to ask the trades and I will never go back to a trade and ask them to lower their price because I don't like it when it happens to me. But I did ask has something changed since the last house?

Because these numbers are very different labor wise and Everybody has gone up considerably in like a month.

Rainey: 00:31:55

That happens. That was a shocker.

Casey: 00:31:57

So I had to go back and.

Rainey: 00:31:58

Do you think it's because people are worried that maybe things are going to slow down because of tariffs or other things that are such a good question. Potentially affecting our economy? Because that recently happened to us with the trade and we had to sit down and talk through it.

And that was sort of a concern. But it's also our job to protect our client. Right. If it's out of line, we know that they don't know that.

And so we can say this is higher than we see.

Casey: 00:32:28

And so do we want to go back and look at for another trade or. Because one thing I love the group that I work with and bring together is they're not. They don't see a zip code and rig up the price, which happens.

We don't allow that all the time. Right. You hear it all the time.

But I do think there is an element of scale, you know, that people do think, okay, this is a little, you know, maybe the detail needs to be a little bit more. Whatever the thing. I don't know. But the pricing was different and that shocked me and I felt really bad for the client.

Rainey: 00:32:56

But how lucky for the client to have you run interference on that. Right. Because they don't know. They have no idea if it's fair or not. And we're not trying to save anybody money.

I always tell people, we're not bread and water. We're a luxury. We're not in this business to save you money. However, it is our job to help. Be your guide.

Casey: 00:33:15

Yes. And not spend your money unnecessarily. Which is my biggest. I do not love wasteful things. Right. So let's reuse that thing if we can. Exactly. But yeah.

So it does still and it does happen. And we've. We've got our finger on the pulse pretty well.

Rainey: 00:33:28

Yeah.

Casey: 00:33:29

We feel like on the construction side. But that furnishing part is such a shame because it is the pretty. I mean, everything. The. You know, it really.

Rainey: 00:33:40

Have you thought about going into your. Because these are something we talk about going into the contract and making all of that part of the contract.

A certain amount of money is going to be spent on interiors in this project and get that commitment up front. Or is. That's. For me, it feels a little weird, especially if you're working with another builder because you don't have any control over.

Over that cost.

Casey: 00:34:10

Right.

Rainey: 00:34:11

And so you don't want the client to unnecessarily commit to something that they won't be able to do. But it's almost like you need to know that furnishing this house is going to be X amount, and that should be set aside for this. For this.

I mean, I don't know, because. Is that protecting the client? I don't know.

Casey: 00:34:32

I almost wonder if it is, in a sense, because then when the builder comes with his things, then maybe they start to question. Because they never question a builder.

Rainey: 00:34:40

Right.

Casey: 00:34:41

But they question us a lot.

Rainey: 00:34:42

Right.

Casey: 00:34:43

And I don't know if it's a male, because builders are men, and I don't know what that dynamic is, but we get it more than the build. I've never seen pushback to the builder only.

Rainey: 00:34:54

Maybe there's so many variables with the.

Casey: 00:34:56

Build, it's harder to understand it and.

Rainey: 00:34:58

It'S hard for us. We just have the answer.

Casey: 00:35:00

Yeah. They're like, this is a couch.

Rainey: 00:35:03

But we.

Casey: 00:35:03

Yeah, the. The.

Rainey: 00:35:04

You know, it's just easier.

Casey: 00:35:06

The trust is. Price is doubled. And what does that even mean? I have no idea. But here's your check, right? Yeah. I don't know. But we do talk about what that is.

But I haven't gotten to the place where I require that money up front.

Rainey: 00:35:19

I don't know about upfront money, but just to commit. A lot of designers do in this. I think they do, too.

Casey: 00:35:23

They ask for, like, 80% of what's going to be spent to have that in their bank. So they're just doing that, which is really smart. And it does allow the client to, you know, get.

Rainey: 00:35:35

Budget better. Yeah, to budget better.

Casey: 00:35:37

Because you did say the check writing, the writing, wearing. They're tired. They do. And so that hemorrhaging. And I think sometimes people also. They are just tired of spending.

So you do get to this point in the project halfway through or more when, like, construction decisions are done. And now it's time for the pretty. And you've been just sort of tying it in, but now and then they're just done.

Rainey: 00:35:59

And if you have 80%, at least you can hit the big highlights. You might not have the layering or the great pieces of art, but you'll at least have. They're not going to move their IKEA furniture back in.

Casey: 00:36:10

Exactly.

Rainey: 00:36:11

Yeah.

Casey: 00:36:11

Yep. They just might not have that insane piece quite yet.

Rainey: 00:36:15

Yeah, but.

Casey: 00:36:15

But they can get that later. And that's fun and.

Rainey: 00:36:17

Yeah, but have you ever had anyone not pay you?

Casey: 00:36:22

Mm. The same gentleman who yelled, oh, he held my last fee over something, and it was not on me.

It was on a vendor, which is such a shame because I really loved that vendor, But I won't. I don't use them anymore because of the way that got handled. And that was so frustrating because it was like. And he did say the only reason.

This is the part Matt did here. The only reason I'm not. I'm holding your fee.

I know you did all the work, and, you know, we love that, but it's because it's the only thing I can hold over your head right now to get the other stuff fixed.

Rainey: 00:36:58

But they also had a money issue, so it was a way that they didn't have to write that last big check.

Casey: 00:37:05

And that was the thing that I again, won't do again. But I got into their money woes early on, and I didn't give them their last bill because I felt so bad about some of these other things.

They had a wedding and all these things, right? So you're like, I'll just wait. I'll just wait to give them the last bill because they're just getting dinged everywhere, and I shouldn't have.

But at least now they have that, and they feel like they got some redemption, I guess.

Rainey: 00:37:28

Lesson learned, Lesson learned, lesson learned.

Casey: 00:37:29

But have you.

Rainey: 00:37:30

I've never not been paid. I did have a really delayed payment. The client, you know, wanted the best of everything, and we wanted her to have the best of everything.

And I think the financial planner just said, we are now done. And so it just took a little while, but we just fell in love with her. She is a really important person in our life.

And we knew that it was gonna be made right, and we just let it go.

Casey: 00:37:57

Okay.

Rainey: 00:37:58

And then it was made right.

Casey: 00:38:00

Was that your V or for product?

Rainey: 00:38:03

It was for product. So it was a lot, well, remodel and labor and all of that kind of stuff. But it was really okay. Yeah, it just. It.

Casey: 00:38:11

It was okay because I bet, because we've talked about this, you know, 100% you get before you even purchase a single thing. Right? But sometimes with the clients, and that's what's. You know, sometimes you get on the other side of that, and you're like, you know what?

We're going to move forward. We don't want to lose this couch because it's the only one. And so before we get your money, we're just going to buy it.

Rainey: 00:38:32

This was really more labor for the remodel, like the finishing up of the remodel, the last sort of payment of that, which, you know, is your last percentage or whatever. And it was. It was all okay. It was handled with a lot of love and respect and kindness. And we understood it very well.

And it was, of course, made right. Which we knew it would be.

Casey: 00:38:54

Yeah. All day long. I completely understand people's financial situations.

Rainey: 00:38:59

Yeah.

Casey: 00:39:00

More than anything. So, yeah.

Rainey: 00:39:01

Sometimes.

Casey: 00:39:02

So it's nice when.

Rainey: 00:39:03

And so another thing about rogue clients is sometimes they want to do something that maybe their aunt or their sister or their neighbor has said that they should include. And here's how I handle that. Especially if I think it's like, just really not the right thing to do. I'll say, okay, you can do that. We'll do that.

Totally get it.

But I want you to write on the snapkin right now while we're sitting here, I will not tell anyone that Raini Richardson thought that doing X, Y and Z was a good idea. I will make sure that everyone knows it was my idea. And by the time I get to the end, it's like, okay, I'm not gonna do it.

Casey: 00:39:46

My God.

Rainey: 00:39:47

And I'm like, I cannot. I cannot paint that while black. Like we're. I. I get that it's a thing now. It's not gonna be. It's not a thing for you, and here's why.

Casey: 00:39:56

It's not a thing for you, but not even. It's not a thing for me. It's like, it's not a thing for.

Rainey: 00:40:00

You, but it's your house, and I respect that. However, so that's kind of another rogue element sometimes that you just have to reign in.

Casey: 00:40:08

You have to rein in. You do the reigning in. And because that happens. And again, I think it is that fatigue and so people.

And that, you know, why now I'm fee based and not hourly is Amen, sister job inviting you. Inviting.

Rainey: 00:40:25

Yeah.

Casey: 00:40:26

Would you like to come for dinner? People stop bringing you in for meetings, and they bring their family or friends who have done this project who are.

Rainey: 00:40:33

Also designers in their street. Right.

Casey: 00:40:38

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:40:39

Yeah.

Casey: 00:40:39

Because they watched an episode or something. So. So then they stop bringing you in, and then you show up and you're.

Rainey: 00:40:45

Like, ooh, yeah, what happened here?

Casey: 00:40:49

Have you ever fired a client or let a client go?

Rainey: 00:40:53

Yes. And I think that is one. It's kind of like when you become an executive in an office.

You have to learn to fire people, even though it's very uncomfortable. It is important that you learn that skill to protect yourself as a human being.

Not to protect your firm, not to protect your reputation, to protect your own sanity, your own mental health, your own.

Casey: 00:41:25

Just your own goodness right now. I hope you heard what she just said because that was freaking huge. Not your firm, but yourself. Because we think of our reputation at all costs.

And so we will bend over backwards and do things we would never do just because we don't want somebody our name. Right. So that is so impactful and I'm really glad you said that.

Rainey: 00:41:46

But I think that also comes with being a 50 something year old woman too. Right. Where you go, this is keeping me up at night. This is affecting my family time. This is because we are empaths. A lot of designers are empaths.

We feel things very deeply. And I think sometimes you have to cut that cord to protect yourself.

It's only happened a couple of times, but it was not without very, very, very deep, deep thinking.

Casey: 00:42:13

Yeah. And I mean going through so many things up until getting to that point.

Rainey: 00:42:18

Rereading emails, reading the text messages, you know, learning where you could have done things differently. But sometimes because we're all again human beings, it just doesn't work. And you keep pulling that along.

Like you said behind the boat, you're just hanging on for dear life and sometimes for your own well being, you have to let go.

Casey: 00:42:40

Cause they're gonna beat your shit up. I have one that comes to mind. And we actually it parted on, on good ways.

But she was an executive and had recently stopped working to stay home with her kids. And she just fell in love with the process of redoing her house.

Rainey: 00:42:57

And that's okay.

Casey: 00:42:58

That was. So she just kept. I mean it was like it was as if I had an.

She was my associate so I was like no matter what she would question it or bring something else.

And it was, it was no longer a design that I was doing and I just had so with her I just did say I think you've got a knack for this and I think you should run with it and not pay me anymore.

Rainey: 00:43:18

Yeah.

Casey: 00:43:19

And it was the most liberating thing in the world.

And I will say her review was probably the nicest I've ever received because like we were talking in another episode about one client learning that she was an artist in the midst of a home remodel. Because of the upheaval, this woman realized that she was actually really good at this.

And she had been a banker before, so it never was like a translating normal thing.

Rainey: 00:43:43

And she like awakened something and she.

Casey: 00:43:46

Loved it and she got to do it and, and she's very proud of her house and she it. But it was, I mean hard to finally come to that. And when I got my head around how it was going to go, that it wasn't going to be a fight.

It didn't need to be. It was genuinely like a mutual respect. Respect. And that's all any of us want. So just respect. Just respect me. I was. All day long. So that was one. Yeah.

Rainey: 00:44:11

Another thing that comes to mind is when you're working with a client and their home's gonna be very beautiful and they share the design with a client or with a. Another family member. Not a client, a neighbor or another family member, and they. They poo. Poo the whole design. Well, I wouldn't do this.

Well, I wouldn't have that. Well, I wouldn't spend that on this. The sabotager. Have you ever had a client that had a sabotage. Sabotager?

And you knew it was happening, but you didn't know. You just want to say that. You want to say they're sabotaging you. They don't want you to have nice things.

Casey: 00:44:50

And they also are going to not. They're going to do this. If you're going to try and get fit or you're. They're going to try. They're the people who are trying to drag you down.

Rainey: 00:44:56

That's it.

Casey: 00:44:57

And they're going to just be that voice in your head. Yeah. And it's mean. It's just not nice. Because this person.

Rainey: 00:45:03

Have you ever had that with a client?

Casey: 00:45:04

Yes, of course. And it's just where you're like, that's not a nice friend. Then let's take this to somebody who's a nice friend.

Rainey: 00:45:10

Yeah.

Casey: 00:45:11

Or let's not. It's like telling your kids names. A lot of people don't tell what their baby's names are going to be.

Rainey: 00:45:15

So they can't get any of the.

Casey: 00:45:17

Input because people have a feel like they have a say. And I know we. I'm sure our clients do say, which. I don't know. Which one do you like? You know, I've had a client who's.

They had the presentations and they left him out on the island for the family to see. And he was so excited and all that. And people did have opinions and he. But he's. You know, his thing was like, you're the professional at the end.

But this is what a few things that were said. I'm like, okay, and I can respect that they were here.

Rainey: 00:45:41

I'll take that under advisement or whatever. Yeah, yeah.

Casey: 00:45:44

But if. And if it's brought to us in that capacity. Absolutely. But if it's sort of this other vein.

Rainey: 00:45:49

Because the client loved it when they left, and now they don't love it for no other reason than there was this one person who got ugly in their ear.

Casey: 00:45:57

But do you think sometimes. And I used to see this when I did hair clients, women would say, oh, I would love to do that, but my husband doesn't really like my hair short.

And the husband doesn't give a shit. They just does. They use it. And I think some clients might. And that's okay. Might use it because they aren't comfortable saying that.

Because we were so. It is like showing your baby. You're like. And they're like, oh.

Rainey: 00:46:23

And we tell clients, we. If you want to blurt out. I hate that. That is so valuable. Because we have wasted no time. And it's not. I didn't make that tile.

I picked that tile for you.

Casey: 00:46:34

It's my favorite. We have when we do the selection meeting, right? And I'm like, this is dead to us. Hideous. Take it out of wedding.

Rainey: 00:46:40

Like. Or they take a look at. I had a client look at a piece of fabric, and she goes, all I can see is a uterus. And I was like, oh, God. And you don't.

So here's the thing. We're not talking.

Casey: 00:46:52

Georgia o' Keefe is here.

Rainey: 00:46:53

We're not talking about this anymore. It is literally going somewhere where you can't see it ever again because you will never unsee a uterus.

Casey: 00:47:03

I mean, are you by an obstetrician? Would this work well in your office? I've gone to slap this, but I'm.

Rainey: 00:47:09

So glad she said it, because don't.

Casey: 00:47:11

You see things in. I see things.

Rainey: 00:47:13

Oh, yeah.

Casey: 00:47:13

And I can't unsee them. And sometimes I say what I see, which is really bad because it's always inappropriate because I'm an appropriate girl. But a slab.

Rainey: 00:47:20

Me too. I'm right there with you.

Casey: 00:47:21

And there's penis. It was a slab of dicks.

Rainey: 00:47:23

And it had a. Did you just say slab of dicks?

Casey: 00:47:26

I got the picture. And thank God that client and I had a ball. And she was on the same wavelength and she saw it and we laughed. The poor guy.

Rainey: 00:47:36

And they're just. They just do. Oh, my God. And they're probably so proud of it.

Casey: 00:47:43

In a bachelor pass.

Rainey: 00:47:45

But no. Unseeing.

Casey: 00:47:46

You can't. And that's a natural piece, right? So you can't not see it. But, yeah, we won't be doing that. I love doing that.

Rainey: 00:47:52

Yeah, I love that. So the whole thing with rogue clients is There are the very few like that go so rogue that it's rogue.

Casey: 00:48:03

Rogue that you can't reel them in.

Rainey: 00:48:04

And then the other ones are we city where we've made the mistake. We clean up our act, we tighten up our contracts, we change the way we talk about things.

And at the end our whole goal is for people to live in a place where they live, work and celebrate that they are obsessed with.

Casey: 00:48:22

Yes.

Rainey: 00:48:23

And we really don't care what the neighbor thinks or aunt Jane thinks or lover. Don't care.

Casey: 00:48:27

Don't care. But we have to remember I do sometimes because I try really hard to say I don't have an ego in this and I do. We do.

You don't wanna hear somebody say they don't like your stuff, but I wanna also leave. And when they have people over, they're so proud that that backsplash, that one.

They might have gone, you know, we might have brought them this thing and then they're like, can we try another thing? And then they find the thing and that happened and that is their prized thing. And. And that's beautiful.

And it's hard because you want to have brought that.

Rainey: 00:48:58

That's right. But we got there eventually.

Casey: 00:49:01

Yeah.

Rainey: 00:49:01

And then the love is there.

Casey: 00:49:03

Love what they've, you know, so it, some, it works sometimes when they do kind of take that little detour off of our design. But if you are thinking you might be the only one or you know, you're not in a boat of your own, you're not.

We have all experienced those clients and many more. And to the clients who think you might be a rogue client, just have a conversation, pick up the phone, have.

Rainey: 00:49:27

A sit down meeting, say, am I a rogue client?

Casey: 00:49:30

Don't go shopping at Home Depot for plumbing on the weekend when your designer needs a break and she doesn't need that text, wait till Monday because spoiler.

Rainey: 00:49:37

Alert, the Dryden faucet at Home Depot is not the same Dryden faucet from Ferguson.

Casey: 00:49:44

It's just not the same faucet mechanism's not the same. You will be very sad about that. So sorry Homesead Depot. But yes.

Rainey: 00:49:51

So if you are a designer working with a rogue client, pick up the phone, mash the pause button. As I like to say, talk it out, get on the same page. And if you can't, it's really okay to part ways.

Just do it in a respectful way that you don't lose sleep and you know you did everything you can to protect the relationship. Even if the project doesn't get finished the way you want it.

Casey: 00:50:19

Yeah, because it just. Sometimes we just. We can't make everything how we want it.

And I think it's important to know that you can step away from these because some of them are unhealthy relationships you get into. And it's not okay to stay there just for the photography or the paycheck because trust me, once you let that one go, the big one will come after.

Rainey: 00:50:39

It's wild, it's a hundred. It'll make space for something bigger and you have to protect yourself and you will attract healthier clients.

If you are able to recognize and have the guts to maybe let a client go, or if you're a client, to let a rogue designer go. That can also happen. We know that that happens and that we're not perfect. So.

Casey: 00:51:03

So if you are an artist and you want to send us your art, or if you want to be behind us and have us try and match our outfits and flowers, you're beautiful. One of a kind. We would love to showcase it. We are both huge fans of all kinds of art as we hope that we will be displaying back here.

But just know that that's it. So.

And if you're listening and you want to pop over to Instagram or YouTube and just see what we're talking about with the art and stuff, please do, because these guys definitely deserve a little look. See? Fantastic.

Rainey: 00:51:32

A hundred percent love this art.

And if you want to chat with Casey and I, you can reach out to us@helloeframingdesign.com you can follow me on Instagram at Randy Richardson Interiors. We would just love to hear from you.

Casey: 00:51:47

And I'm Casey again. And I am CassandraBrandInteriors on Instagram. And again, yeah. Hello, Reframing. We'd love to hear any questions or.

Yeah, your own experiences with rogue clients. Please share.

Rainey: 00:52:00

Send us your rogue client experiences.

Casey: 00:52:02

Realize it's not a always talked about conversation. And so we thank you for letting us sort of share some of our stuff.

Rainey: 00:52:09

That's a good point.

It's uncomfortable for us to share some of these stories and experiences, but it's so important and the whole reason we're doing this podcast and it's not all rainbows and butterflies and hgtv. It is real and we are human and we do the best we can every day.

Casey: 00:52:25

So go do your best. Whatever that is.

Rainey: 00:52:28

Whatever that is. Thank you for watching. Thank you and listening.

Outro: 00:52:33

That's a wrap for this episode of the Art of Interior Design. We hope you had a blast and found some inspiration to bring your dream space to life. Feeling inspired to start your own home transformation?

Contact us@helloeframingdesign.com we want to help you make it happen. Don't forget to subscribe, Share and leave a Review this show was edited and produced by Truth Work Media.

Until next time, remember, your space is your story. Make it beautiful.